NOT Milano Interiors Show - Ep01

Introducing the BETTER FUTURE NOT Milano Interiors Show. In episode one, Mark is joined by William Knight, Catherine Shaw, and Betsy Sweat as they discuss all the buzz that would have been at this year's Milan Design Week, with stand-out projects and expos and memories from years past.

15 June 2020 | Lucy Grant


Mark Bergin - Founder & CEO of BETTER FUTURE
William Knight - Director of The Renew Consultancy
Catherine Shaw - Independent Newspapers Professional
Betsy Sweat - Head of Asia Pacific - Restoration Hardware


0:02:40 - André Fu – Mid Century Collection 
0:02:46 - André Fu: Crossing Cultures with Design Written by Andrè Fu and Catherine Shaw 
0:03:44 - André's Collection Launch and Video  
0:04:24 - Composer Rosey Chan
0:04:38 - André on 1stDibs and Moda Operandi
0:09:33 - Accessories for the Paranoid  
0:09:40 - Katja Trinkwalder and Pia-Marie Stute  
0:11:25 - Norwegian Presence
0:11:37 - Paper Pulp Printer
0:12:14 - Beer Holthuis (designer) 
0:13:05 - Exopixel - Recycled Plastics
0:13:52 - Fusina Lab and Matteo Cibic Studio 
0:14:31 - Cov - Desk Partition 
0:18:24 - Restoration Hardware New York 
0:21:25 - Raine Electric Scooter
0:22:32 - Lee Broom
0:22:57 - Salone Del Automobile - Milan Design Week 2016  
0:25:05 - Tom Dixon 
0:25:13 - The Mazoni & The Coal Office  
0:29:55 - Kartell AI Chair Range
0:30:14 - Autodesk Skateboard 


Mark Bergin  00:05
Welcome everybody, you're on episode one of Not Milano Interiors Show. I'm Mark Bergin and joining me is Catherine Shaw, Betsy Sweat and William Knight. So, Will is in London, Betsy, you're in Hong Kong and Catherine, I think you're in Hong Kong too. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. All of us are not at Milano. Now we know why, it's been canceled, but we want to make sure that you're also finding out what could have happened at Milano. You're also finding out what could have happened on any one of 50 shows that didn't happen. I'm going to tell you who some of the panelists are, give you their backstory so that we can get into it. And Betsy Sweat, the Head of Asia Pacific for Restoration Hardware... So Betsy is going to be fantastic in talking about where it comes from being one of those super brands which is actually working out how to go leverage their product, leverage their brand in a post-COVID period. Catherine Shaw is an architectural designer, writer, and author with Wallpaper, Metropolis and Design Anthology. So Katherine is going to be fantastic at being able to give us some inside scoops. I think actually if we went and mugged Catherine, we could put her on a waterboard and find out every product that didn't get launched, but she's not going to give us all of that. And we've got William Knight here, actually let's just call you Will because that's so much more casual.  Will is a design promoter, and for those of you don't know, Will's portfolio has Expo Director for Dubai Design Week, Clerkenwell, and 100% Design... what he doesn't know about putting on one of these major shows doesn't need to be know... I think that's how i'm going to put it. So, you know, let's jump into it here. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Mark Bergin. I'm the founder of BETTER FUTURE Award programs and I'm also kind of the raconteur that's putting the Design Executives Club together. So, that's who we are and what we hope that we can do is that we can fill in your minds and give you a bit more of an understanding about what we didn't see at Milan, what we could have seen, and we've got some insights on what was going to be there? Catherine, you've got a project, which didn't make it because the show wasn't there, but it's recently been released.

Catherine Shaw  02:18
Yes, it was released today! Perfect timing so we can talk about it. Well, this is a new collection of homeware products designed by the Hong Kong architectural and interior designer, Andre Fu. And actually, I've just finished writing a book about Andre and we were going to launch our book at the same time as him launching his second collection of homeware during Salone. He had plans for a beautiful palazzo, and as an architect, he was going to design the stenography as well. So, that's something that always interests me because I love it when you see not just the product, but you see the thinking about how it's presented. You can go in, you can touch it, it's all about the tactility and the spirit of what has been designed. Now, obviously that's been cancelled. Salone has been cancelled, but Andre's products were all ready. So he was very heavily pivoted on, you know, very short time and he has launched it and well the story went live today on

Mark Bergin  03:38
A Wallpaper exclusive this, wasn't it?

Catherine Shaw  03:41
Exclusive, yes. With a fantastic video which is not a video of 'this is my chair, this is the tea pot, this is the beautiful cocktail trolley', it is much more about the spirit and the feel of it and that's what you miss when you haven't been at Salone. That experience of walking into an exhibition and that kind of fantasy feeling, but you see it beyond an Instagram image. So I think he's very cleverly captured that feeling.

Catherine Shaw  05:28
He commissioned musical composer Rosey Chan to create an original piece of music for the video which is stunning and the video is also online at Wallpaper. So I think that's quite interesting and at the same time, he's launched his collection on 1st Dibs and Moda Operandi. But because China is that much further ahead, and Hong Kong, in terms of physically getting back to shopping... So his products are actually on show in this part of the world. In Lane Crawford, you know, he has a complete setup. But for the rest of the world where digital is much more important at this point, it's available there. But it's about how you tell the story differently. I think that is very interesting.

Mark Bergin  06:22
Yeah. So that's really interesting that you've had this story, which was, you know, lots of preparation. You've going to think of how longitudinal that planning - from, I've got a book, I'm going to have an exhibition that displays, and then it all collapses. So to pivot and to turn around and say, here's a video that we've done to go give you that context. Because I think, Betsy, in the pre-show discussion, you were talking about the influences you get by being around those objects in space. It's very different, isn't it? And so it's important that we're getting that inspiration, not just a flat video of, 'here's my favorite chair. Here's my favorite vase.'

Betsy Sweat  07:00
Right, well just for a moment going back to Andre Fu as well, it will be interesting Catherine to see how the digital portrays him, because he designs very much who he is and his presentations of his new designs are exactly him. And I don't know how well that shows, that comes through. He's a very humble, very talented architect and interior designer. His products are stunning and his work process to get to those final outcomes are are very fluid but yet still very controlled about how he... he is very thoughtful about how we put them together. So having had the distinct pleasure of working with him on the line of outdoor products in the previous life I was in, and working with him on a daily basis on those projects it was really interesting to see how things unfold for him. And that shows very well with him personally. So I'm wondering, this video does it capture it in your eyes?

Catherine Shaw  08:14
Yeah, I think it does. Because actually, when I was talking to Andre last week, before I wrote the article, I was, you know, we were talking about obviously things have to be beautiful, you know, the things he makes are beautiful. He's not just interested in making something that's pretty or decorative. For him, it really is important about how it makes you feel. And I think this is really interesting because we've never been in this situation before where you have the physical sort of context in this side of the world, but you also have online and of course, you know, Mainland China is very, very familiar buying quality products online as well. Nothing really up until now seems to have replaced this feeling of when you walk into a place and you see the sumptuous bed with the chaise longue, I mean there's something about a chaise longue that just makes me want to flop down on it and touch it, you know, when you see it and that's  going to be interesting for us to review say in a year from now.

Mark Bergin  09:23
Exactly. Now, I'm going to be that annoying friend who's at Salone with you, or any show, and I'm gonna say come on, we've gonna get to the next exhibit. Because, you know, just like being one of the shows we do have to keep moving on but I do want to come back and let's have a little bit of a longer look in another episode. But Will, you've got some projects in here that you want to drag us along to, which are these conceptual projects. Some of them are about recycling, some of them are about highly responsive to COVID circumstances - give us a lead take us somewhere.

William Knight  09:54
So some of the shows that I really enjoy going to, alongside those blockbusters that Catherine eloquently reminds us of, arer grip shows that come together either under the banner of a country or because they've been put together by a design curator. And I just wanted to point to a couple. The first one is a project which is very kind of conceptual called 'Accessories for the Paranoid' and it's kind of beautifully stylized concept pieces. And the designers, Katja Trinkwalder and Pia-Marie Stute, who have come out of that well known design school in Eindhoven, have created what they call 'Parasitic Devices', which basically sit physically on your laptop, your mobile phone, and they basically switch and kind of muzzle the digital information that's shared by these machines. And in some ways, this is probably a product for the future. Something that will return to Milan in different guises, perhaps more commercially, as we go into a new state of digital data sharing. And so I think that's the sort of thing that I always see in Milan that you kind of keep an eye on and and spot later down the line.

Mark Bergin  11:17
It feels like it's actually from the merch shop from Black Mirror, doesn't it? You know, it's this dystopian intervention, but we know that we're going to have to get there at some point.

William Knight  11:27
Yeah, and I think what's, you know... Milan is a furniture show, you know, it's a physical show. It's a showcase of physical products. And I think it's often important, particularly as you move into a kind of new period of data sharing and analysis and all this kind of contact tracing, this new language, to see a physical product that actually looks at this, as well as the kind of software side of things. So I think it's a really interesting take on kind of digital dimensions.

Mark Bergin  11:56
Well, what's our next little concept project that you looked at?

William Knight  12:01
So, other projects that I spotted came from a show which didn't happen, called Norway Presence. And the Norwegians have been brilliant at promoting their design for many, many years, often around the world, but particularly in Milan. So just a couple I wanted to kind of point out. The first one was project called 'The Paper Pulp Printer', very low tech in many ways, but they've managed to finally create a machine which can sit in a domestic space and allow you to kind of pour your waste paper, your newspaper, what you would normally find in a recycling bin, into a processor, which then creates a liquid, which can then be 3D printed. I like this project because we've seen 3D printers at Milan for many, many years, but not necessarily in such a kind of stripped back and easily accessible way that uses a material that's a kind of normal domestic waste. And there are some good examples of this project. So that's designed by Beer Holthuis, again out of the Netherlands. Another one I just wanted to point out, was an Italian company called Exopixel who recycle plastics. So, this is more of a kind of service provider in many ways, but what they're basically suggesting through their showcase that they were going to hold was a way of using plastics, again which are discarded from their primary use and utilized into products and things that can be produced either individually as oneoffs, or as kind of multiples. So they're basically a kind of tooling company and I like the fact that they're at Milan because what they're saying is, look, this plastic is going to waste and we want to be able to utilize it properly. And so basically, they can create almost any 3D object up to two meters high, which I think kind of allows for huge amounts of creativity.

Mark Bergin  13:53
It's great to see that now, you know, the we've had municipal or city based recycling programs, but often they've had more material than they've known how to go apply. So this is great to go see that juxtaposition between the material being available, the creative community saying we know how to consume that, and making some absolute objects of desire. And I think that's a really important project.

William Knight  14:18
Yeah, and bringing it much closer to the consumer as well, which I think is a real game changer.

Mark Bergin  14:23
And now Will, I think you've got a desk, which is like the COVID response of desk partitions as well.

William Knight  14:30
Well, this is one that I spotted. So this is a project that's produced and distributed by Fusina Lab, designed by Matteo Cibic Studio. And together they've been producing these partition devices or products. I mean, really very beautiful, using anodized elements and transparent surfaces, so you can sort of see them in elegant dining situations, you can see them in sort of hospitality settings. But, they've responded very quickly to the new nature of interior design, particularly in a kind of workspace context. And they produced a design very quickly, a product called Cov Desk Partition, which really just caught my eye because it's such a beautiful thing. They photographed it incredibly well. They use some very nice styling to be able to create a setting which would, I presume, create individual spaces that protect from fear of infection. And I just thought, you know, this is a beautiful example of a company responding to an existing aesthetic, and they have to draw that forward and produce new products that are really up to date.

Mark Bergin  15:41
So Betsy, I want to throw over to you and talk a little bit about Restoration Hardware now. Restoration Hardware... behemoth!What is it, you've got somwthing like 90 showrooms in the states already? But I think what was going to happen at Milano this year was that you're going to run a bunch of very private exclusive, experiential, you know, depth and immersion events with your customers...

Betsy Sweat  16:05
We were going to quietly become the hot ticket in town, is what the objective was. And actually it's a great lead and we talked about how things may change for next year as a result of COVID. But let me tell you a little bit about what you missed, because we are company that does not look back. So, while the venue is for us, it's all about the experience. And the idea is to have that combination of the right furnishings and the right lighting, being exhibited, but also in a setting, and in a way between the music and the environment in which you're having these things revealed to you, is creating a feeling within you, and that is distinctly RH. So if you look at, as Mark said, any of our 90 showrooms in the States, they invest evoke a certain feeling the minute you walk in the door. And the idea was in this particular venue, at Salone, we were going to not only reveal some of the furnishings that are now available, but the big thing was to talk about the international launch. And for RH this next decade is about growing equally as large in the international arena. So how do you create those great feelings in different countries, appealing to different cultures, designing for what is obviously commercially viable in the market you're talking about, the right scale for different countries, obviously taking things that product designers know work really well but making sure it fits for the homes and commercial spaces and whatever market you're launching. So, we had announced seven to the financial community that we are launching, three will happen within the next 24 months. The first is an extraordinary property in England. So the English countryside will house not only a gallery, but also a vineyard, orange groves, as well as a Michelin star restaurant... so the F&B offering will be something very different than what you've seen at RH before. On the heels of that will be Paris, then London. And then we're talking Spain, Milan, Germany, and then some real surprises will start to happen after that. So that's what you missed!

Mark Bergin  18:37
Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Some real surprises... Come on. There's four of us. You can tell us-

Betsy Sweat  18:43
Yeah, there are four of us and the rest of the world that this is going out to, and I will have my head handed to me if I talk any further about what those are. But I would like to say it's really about introducing to the European community and in that part of the world, who we are, what we're about, and what we're gonna do differently.

Mark Bergin  19:04
Now, Catherine, I believe when you've been to the Restoration Hardware showroom in New York, that people have to come and actually grab you to take you out because you just you never want to leave, do you?

Catherine Shaw  19:16
I have to say I was with my husband, who is an architect and works in the design industry for a hotel, and so, we went for lunch, and you know, had a few glasses of wine. And then we were just totally beguiled because we were wandering through the store and looking at the various displays and it was so relaxed and so, so, so beautiful that you can experience it. It kind of reminded me of that feeling you get when you go to Salone or to Milan and and you have some of the bigger design brands that really put something together with a thought about everything - from the lighting, to the perfume, to just the scale of it.

Mark Bergin  20:10
There's an excitement and energy.

Catherine Shaw  20:13
Well, there was a lot of excitement because we had had some very, very good champagne.

Mark Bergin  20:18
Actually, I think that's an important thing, you know, part of living is actually just being swept up in these moments. And the idea that you're getting all this input, which is trying to say to you, this is right... if you've actually had a little bit of giggle juice or a little bit of something that's going to help you to actually relax a little bit, you're going to be more receptive to what's going on.

Catherine Shaw  20:42
Well we went around, we went around trying all the comfortable looking chairs, and there was one chair that I thought I was never going to get my husband out of. He plonked down into it, and he just went 'we could actually throw some of our favourite furniture away to have this chair',  and this is what it all comes down to. This is the difference between an exquisite press release that is put out and on Instagram, is that when you've sat in a chair, and there's something different, you have an emotional connection, it's tactile, but your body records that somehow in your memory. So, you know, we still keep going, you know, if only we had a bigger balcony we'd buy that chair. We don't even need to say 'it was the chair in New York', because we both know which chair we're talking about. Because it's imprinted in a different way.

Mark Bergin  21:45
Well, we're going to come back to some chairs in a moment - we're going to be talking about Kartell. But what I do want to do is I want to talk about the bits that happen between the larger displays at Salone and at all shows. And Catherine we had dinner in Melbourne, in I think it was February, just before the lockdown happened. And you were at dinner with a tech startup guy, the founder of an electric scooter called Raine. And you thought you were out to dinner with a geek or something, he showed you a picture of this thing and I saw you go have, a little bit like that chair and Restoration Hardware, you had a moment where you went, 'Oh, that's very delightful.'

Catherine Shaw  22:25
No - I wanted it.

Raine advertisement  22:27
Meet the Raine One. We set out to design the best scooter in the world. To give you the freedom to go anywhere and have fun while you're doing it. We've given the Raine One more speed and power than anything else in its class. Other scooters talk about performance, safety and range, but just don't cut it. It's time for a scooter to take you all the way. Lightweight, powerful, smart. We built the Raine One from the ground up, featuring poly-shock suspension, ABS and disc brakes. This is the safest, smartest scooter on the market. With regen-braking it even recharges the battery when you slow down. We also designed the Raine One with security in mind. Not only does it have a retractable lock, we're also connecting it to your smartphone. So if someone moves it, you'll know about it. Made from carbon fiber and aircraft grade aliminium, the Raine One is lightweight, making it easy to carry and store. But not only is the Raine One efficient, it's built for performance. You don't always finish work when the sun's up. That's why we designed a scooter with the brightest headlights and taillights on the market. So when it's dark out, you can always see and be seen. Every feature of this screw that is designed with the rider in mind. Our team has years of experience in shipping products people love and they've come together with a shared vision of creating fun, sustainable, personalized transport, that's better than anything else on the market. We've had a lot of fun designing the right one electric scooter and production has already started. And now we need your help. So jump on board because we can't wait to share the journey with you. Raine, designed to move you.

Mark Bergin  24:24
Okay- I didn't want to commit you to that. Okay. And what was interesting there was this was going to be an opportunity for this object to desire to be your transport - so that's got the functional side - but also anybody would be proud to go have the Raine scooter in their hallway as an object that is fitting to the rest of the beautiful, stylish place that they've made. And I think it's really important that those small ways that projects and products interject. I think we were talking about Lee Broom, how he went- I think he was a bit cheeky last year with a truck-

Catherine Shaw  25:02
It was a few years ago, I think it was 2016 maybe 17 that he did it. But you see, this is another example of something that sticks in your mind. You know, Lee's a fantastic British lighting designer. And, you know, he's been to Milan many times, and he goes and he sees how these other big brands are putting together amazing shows and palazzo. He's such a creative thinker, he thought, well, you know, why don't I make my own palazzo? So he drove his truck from London to Milan, and he had created, or recreated a kind of graceful, beautiful, beautiful Palazzo environment in the back of a fairly small truck. But it had everything, it had the Corinthian marble-type looking columns, and then he hung his lights and he played with the light. But the interesting thing was he drove it around to all the really hot spots in Milan. Okay so, in the morning people are having coffee, just go and park it right outside the best coffee shop. But the best was he went and parked it outside of the Wallpaper party, which is like the hot party in Salone, in Milan. And you know people are queuing up, what are they going to look at? They looking at Lee Broom's exquisite lights in a palazzo, in the back of a truck - brilliant!

Mark Bergin  26:39
Will that must have been hell for you with Clerkenwell because people trying to go do those, you know, Lee's in town and he's got he's truck and, well is he part of the show, isn't he? It's chaos, but it's also where some of the delight is, isn't it?

William Knight  26:55
Yeah, I mean, listen, if you try and create an event that has purely commercial returns, then your visitor base is going to know that it's an anodyne, and in a slightly sterile environment. And I think, you know, the stuff that Lee does, the stuff that many other brands have done in Milan, London, in other shows, you know, those are the experiential things that as Catherine says, stick in your mind. Often they're sort of driven by a kind of marketing rationale that enables flexibility around product displays and kind of engaging with people, but that's what people want. They want to be able to come across stuff, they want to be able to spot new and different ways of doing things. And they want to kind of combine that with the blockbusters. You know, so it's a bit of everything. That's what really makes it magic.

Mark Bergin  27:43
And then I think if I go look at the other people have worked out how to get that bit of magic to happen on a permanent basis is Tom Dixon and co. They've really been able to work out how to go. They've got their restaurant that's down in Milan. They've also got their Coal Drops Yard site. So they've worked out, a little bit like Restoration Hardware, where they've got a 365 days-a-year opportunity for that excitement and energy. But they also need to make sure that they're getting exposure in those peak events as well, don't they? And I suppose Catherine, that's where something like Wallpaper comes in, where you are able to go give them that peak exposure opportunity, but then they're able to go handle it on a longer basis.

Catherine Shaw  28:26
I think this is the important thing about something like Salone and the Design Week... is that, you know, people like me who write about these things, we go to hundreds of events and that week. So how do you distill what is really special, what is really different? And those things have to capture you, and they're not always the big blockbuster. Some of them are, you know, Hermes does something is always going to be exquisite, you know, Louis Vitton, super polished and creative and edgy in some elements. But it's these clever interstitial kind of projects that capture you as well. But you have to go in and touch them. Now, Tom Dixon's a very interesting example of that, because, you know, he would put on breakfast and he's very clever, he has excellent coffee. So, you know, if you're in that area, you know, it's called the Manzoni, you want to go there for a cup of coffee, and then you're tired because you're walking all day, so you want another cup of coffee, many cups of coffee. And then you're sitting in his chair, under one of his lights, you're drinking your coffee from his cup and I think that's so clever. Because sometimes I go to these exhibitions and you know, there'll be an absolutely beautiful ceramics set. I'm not allowed to touch it. I just have to look at it and I can go 'that is stunning', but actually, I want to see what the weight of it's like in my hand, what does it feel like to drink from. You know, and I think a lot of designers miss that trick because they only see it like a gallery. So designers like Tom who understand that once you've drunk an espresso from one of his glasses that you think yeah, that's actually quite nice drinking my espresso from a glass. You want that? And then you go and you can buy it from the shop.

William Knight  30:30
Yeah, I mean that brand, you know, it's the brand - I mean, he's a human being, but he's a brand - is a walking design festival. You think of some of the things that Tom has done over the years, he's taken on the Natural History Museum, he's worked in cinemas, he's partnered up with IKEA. And as a consequence of that really creative thinking, it's one element of the Milan experience you never miss because you just want to go and see what Tom's done. And you could almost remember, I could almost chart the last 15 Milanos through what Tom Dixon has done. I probably wouldn't get them in the right order, but you know, that's exceptional marketing. That's really excellent.

Catherine Shaw  31:08
There's always the touch of the maverick. I remember once a few years ago he had this big party and it was in this completely obscure location, had to walk miles - you see, I needed my scooter then - and then instead of having plates and plates of silly canopes. He had huge slabs, like enormous, about five meters by three meters, solid slab of chocolate, and then he had hammers, like big wooden hammers. So you could literally just hammer the table and take up a great big slab of chocolate, and stand there with your cocktail and giant slab of chocolate. And it was all about kitchens and surfaces and materiality. But it was the excitement, that showmanship, that actually made it so interesting and why there was a queue in the rain outside.

Mark Bergin  32:06
Okay, I'm still being that annoying friend, I've got to keep us moving on. I know everyone's time is valuable, particularly our viewers here. I want to talk about Kartell and their AI chair range. Now we saw it at IMM in Germany. This is an astounding collaboration between Autodesk, Kartell and also Phillip Stark. I originally saw the genesis of this project at Autodesk in about 2015. They made a skateboard, the picture is on the screen there - the skateboard is now in MONA. The idea was can you get the computer to go work out all of the structural requirements that are in an object that has incredible forces on it. I mean, we know chairs have lots of forces. So Autodesk brought that knowledge which started off in that skateboard project under Scott Summit, and then they've now taken it into a production item, which they probably would have had 1000 suggestions at the design. The team at Kartell worked out which one was going to be beautiful, but more important that they using 100% recycled material in this. So it's got the sustainability, it's got the smarts of how it's designed from a structural engineering perspective, and the thing just looks fantastic. So you know, I think for Kartell that is amazing project. What an unfortunate thing that people didn't get to go see it in this cycle. Let's hope that they get to sit in one of them soon. Because I think to your point, Catherine, whether it's actually the Andre Fu, or whether it's actually what we were looking at with Restoration Hardware, the proof of the pudding is when you sit in a chair, you know whether you want to stay in it or not. And that I think is why we need shows. We need showrooms. We need expos. Because otherwise we don't get that experience.

Betsy Sweat  33:54
I think when you're also talking about interior designers and architects who go to these for inspiration. And it is about the experience. It's about going to different parties. It's about interacting with people at the end of the day and knowing I have spent my day in Brera and this is what I saw, or I spent my day looking through certain halls and this is what I took away as the hot items that are going to stick in my memory until the next year. But your projects are different. Designers and architects have told me, you walk away from Salone and Clerkenwell and other design shows where the inspiration is energising. It takes you in a different direction that you didn't expect. And your designs are reflective of that. I think that's what will never change, as digitally reinforcing as some of the new launches have been. I think what we're missing is not only that human interaction with each other on the spot, but it's being tactile, being very visual, being in a space so that you can see how the scale affects you. I think those things will never change. Places like Salone will always be on our bucket list to go to every year, it doesn't matter how long we're in this industry.

Mark Bergin  35:15
I'm absolutely sure that's the case there Betsy. And you know, there's way too much for us to go get into in this program. We're going to come back in about two weeks and we'll have another one here. I know I've got some notes here about projects from Neri & Hue, there's more from Tom Dixon from what he showed me in December last year, he must be wanting to get that out. There's the guys from Tirar, there's Riva 1920. There is so much to be shown, I look forward to sharing it with you and with with the viewers in a couple of weeks time. And thank you for helping me out with Not Milan Interiors Show. We'll see you all in about two weeks' time.

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